Introduction to Non-Religious vs. Christian Online Debate Yahoo has many Groups with the topics of religious debate. To my knowledge the most popular is achristianvsatheistclub. On busy days up to 500 messages can be posted. It is normally good humor debate betweens theists and the non-religious; the only rule is there are no rules.   Common Christian Arguments and Tactics 1. Hitler was an atheist. Wrong - he was Catholic. Hitler mentions God 70 plus times in his autobiography Mein Kampf. Nazi soldiers had "gottmituns" or "God with us" engraved on their belt buckle. There are many pictures, including the belt buckle, at Nobeliefs Nazi religious photos. For more details on Hitler’s religion go to: Infidels Arguments - Hitler Hitler’s Religion by FFRF   2. America was founded as a Christian Nation. False. Christian, God, religion, nor church appears in the Constitution of the United States.   The third Article in the Bill of Rights, which became the First Amendment, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…", from www.ourdocuments.gov.  "In God" was added to the pledge and money much later.   "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law," Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814   3. Stalin was an atheist. Actually this is true, but 1894 to 1899 Joseph Stalin attended the Orthodox theological seminary in Tiflis on scholarship. – Grolier Online. The reply he learned ethics from the Bible usually results in the Christian changing the subject.   4. Get ready to be insulted; when people are losing an argument they often use insults to distract or change the subject. Either ignoring the insult and staying on the subject or one of the following is effective: Proverbs 12:16, "A fool is quick-tempered, but a wise person stays calm when insulted." Luke 22:65, "And they threw all sorts of terrible insults at him." James 1:26, "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."   5. Prove god does not exist. This is a fallacy of shifting the burden of proof; when someone claims something exists, it is up to him or her to prove it. If a claim is true because there is no evidence or proof to the contrary, the most bizarre claims such as incorporeal, invisible dragons would be true. For additional debate information see "Attacking Faulty Reasoning" and "Atheist Debater's Handbook" listed on the Books page, and there is an overview at Logical Fallacies.   Carl Sagan received much mail from people claiming that God talks to them, but he never received a reply when he requested that they ask their all knowing God to tell the top five cards of a shuffled deck or give a concise proof of Fermat's Last Theorem.   6. All of the Bible scriptures are right when interpreted.   2 Peter 1:20-21: (KJV) "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."   While the Bible says no scripture came about by interpretation, Christians are not able to agree about interpreting the Bible; the World Christian Encyclopedia tabulates 33,830 Christian denominations. When debating liberal Christians about "Are the laws of the Old Testament still valid", I posted their arguments verbatim into a debate room with fundamentalists and received insults about lack of Biblical knowledge, counter arguments and scriptures to support their point of view. Hundreds of Biblical contradictions are listed at Infidels’ Donald Morgan Biblical Inconsistencies.   Religious Ethics The word "ethics" does not appear in the Bible, but here are some common words in the Bible from BibleGateway.com, NIV version:   Death - 459 results; 2 Kings 19:35, That night the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the next morning-there were all the dead bodies!   Kill - 421 results; Revelation 9:15, And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.   Blood - 392 results; Isaiah 49:26, I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.   In the Bible God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered. People in the Bible tried to force beliefs of imaginary paranormal beings onto others, and many times when they failed they killed in the name of God. A good start is the first two commandments, no others gods or idols - they result in Moses killing 3,000 friends and family in Exodus 32:27-28. David and Gideon slaughtered thousands. Jesus said in John 15:6: "Anyone who parts from me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned." Revelation 9:15 prophesize angels will kill a third of mankind. Is mass murder a principle of right conduct?   Sacrifice - 361 results; Judges 11:30-34, And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD 's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." … 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter.   Slave - 165 results; Exodus 21:20-21  "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.   Mark Twain described his mother as a genuinely good person, whose soft heart pitied even Satan, but who had no doubt about the legitimacy of slavery, because in years of living in antebellum Missouri she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg in A Designer Universe, referenced by Science and Religion: Are they Compatible?, Paul Kurtz.   I consider ethical debate by far the easiest to win with Christians; the Bible contrasts the Secular Ethical and Humanists teachings of living with reason, compassion, responsibility, and using negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences.   Counterpoints to Christian "Science" There are some attempted proofs of God using science, but these can be shown as incorrect, misquotes, or illogical. Some Christian pseudo-science statements and proofs are listed below with opposing arguments.   1. The atheist has always maintained that there was no beginning. People of logic usually follow what experts in the appropriate fields of science have observed, tested, and verified. Currently science indicates there was a start to this universe 13.7 billion years ago. A local observatory or a science book such as A Short History of Nearly Everything has more information about the Big Bang. Particle accelerator laboratories such as Fermilab and CERN are actively involved in research to determine more details about the universe; they have education sections on their websites, and are open to visitors. By the way, they don’t say, "God did it."   2. If the sun and other stars have existed forever, there would be no hydrogen left. The Solar System is thought to be 4.5 billion years old, and a star like the Sun has enough fuel in its core to burn at its current brightness for approximately 9 billion years, according to NASA. Also, the death of stars produces the heavier elements needed for life.   3. The second law of thermodynamics (things tend to become disordered) and the universe "will not run any more". The life cycle of stars is relatively well known and is discussed in A Short History of Nearly Everything. The second law of thermodynamics is actually a valid argument against the idea that gods in the image of man (Genesis 1:26) can live for billions of years.   4. Top scientists such as Sagan and Einstein are often quoted saying "God" as scientific support and "proof" of their arguments. The quotes are taken out of context. For example, there are sentences on this page which, when presented alone, would indicate that I support the belief in God. Sagan and Einstein, in addition to being top scientists, were communicators. They would get questions from the religious involving God, and they would answer in terms and concepts that the person asking the questions could relate to. Here is further clarification of Sagan’s and Einstein’s religious beliefs:   In a March 1996 profile in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune for his book, Sagan stated, "My view is that if there is no evidence for it, then forget about it. An agnostic is somebody who doesn't believe in something until there is evidence for it, so I'm agnostic."   As Albert Einstein said in his obituary, " I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms." - New York Times, 19 April 1955   5. When faced when the question "Who created God?" Christian apologists state that a physical God like man is alien to the Bible. To support their claims, a few words of a Bible verse are quoted, omitting the majority of the verse that gives the context and meaning of that verse. Here are a few complete verses from the Bible about the physical form of God.   Genesis 1:27: "So God created people in his own image; God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them."   Jacob Wrestles with God Genesis 32:24-30: "This left Jacob all alone in the camp, and a man came and wrestled with him until dawn. 25 When the man saw that he couldn't win the match, he struck Jacob's hip and knocked it out of joint at the socket…. 28 "Your name will no longer be Jacob," the man told him. "It is now Israel,[b] because you have struggled with both God and men and have won." 29 "What is your name?" Jacob asked him. "Why do you ask?" the man replied. Then he blessed Jacob there. 30 Jacob named the place Peniel--"face of God"--for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared."   Numbers 22:30-32: "But I am the same donkey you always ride on," the donkey answered. "Have I ever done anything like this before?" "No," he admitted. Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the roadway with a drawn sword in his hand. Balaam fell face down on the ground before him. 32 "Why did you beat your donkey those three times?" the angel of the LORD demanded. "I have come to block your way because you are stubbornly resisting me.  – Note: About verse 30, donkeys only talk in fairy tales.